NBN interference

[VK3RX]

A bit of Googling for NBN interference and notching turned up these:

https://thersgb.org/search/index.php?q=v...h+RSGB.ORG

See pages 46 - 47 here (we use VDSL2 which uses higher frequencies than VDSL1)) :

https://www.accc.gov.au/system/files/Ana...ted%29.pdf

Notching is mentioned here, although the OPs problem was his signals knocking out his service, not the other way round. It does suggest notching is available by the NBN though:

https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/3lynk8q9

[VK2VRC]

Any improvement as things have dried out a little?

A bit of Googling for NBN interference and notching turned up these:

https://thersgb.org/search/index.php?q=v...h+RSGB.ORG

See pages 46 - 47 here (we use VDSL2 which uses higher frequencies than VDSL1)) :

https://www.accc.gov.au/system/files/Ana...ted%29.pdf

Notching is mentioned here, although the OPs problem was his signals knocking out his service, not the other way round. It does suggest notching is available by the NBN though:

https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/3lynk8q9

Interesting read, page 48 it mentions notching and interference to "ham" radio

[VK3RX]

Just noticed this thread started on Whirlpool:

Optus FTTN line/modem wiped by ham radio

[VK2CSW]

Less than surprising given the frequencies the cheap Chinese made terminal equipment operate at.

Things will only get more interesting as oversight and regulation is farmed out and forgotten.

[VK2VRC]

Well a slight glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.

I contacted NBN Co again, did the usual explain the situation , but this time the lady that took the call seemed a little interested , although not technically able to know anything about it .

She promised to have someone call me back . Surprise ,surprise , someone called me a couple of days later , he said he was my case manager and gave me a reference number . We discussed the problem ,and he asked if I could send him anything to show the problem . I sent him the video clip of the interference starting as soon as I transmitted ,ensuring that I stressed ,it wasn't purely from my large antenna, but could be triggered by a small antenna and very low power , and by a transceiver operated in the street from a motor vehicle , therefore eliminating my property .

He was pleased with what I sent him , and it has been sent to the technical team . Now waiting for them to get back to me . Not much , but a big difference from the total denial I was getting previously . At least with a case number ,I have something to present to the communications ombudsman if I need to !

[VK2AZ]

That's promising Wayne,
What number did you contact them on?
I will do the same process....

Hilary
VK2AZ

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[VK5TM]

Good to see something might finally be going in the right direction for you.

Unfortunately, as with a lot of these organisations, you have to keep on at them - very much the squeaky wheel gets the attention caper.

[VK2CSW]

Sound like a step in the right direction.

Same kind of script my case followed. The network engineers who came to my (old) place were knowledgeable and once I explained what the system was and what the waterfall on WSJT showed, they were on board and understood the issue.

Good luck, I hope you get the same response.

[VK2ZIW]

Now the NBN is here, FTTC, we still have the Optus HFC cable and it's phone lines wipe out 40m all the time.
It's been two years now and it's still connected to most houses in my street.
Wedmore Rd Emu Heights (Penrith area, western Sydney)

[VK3DXE]

When we first got FTTC NBN, it was on VDSL 1 and you could see the cutoff on an SDR at around 18MHz. So all of the bands below that were pretty much wiped out, regardless of whether I transmitted or not. When they moved to VDSL 2, I also lost up to 10m, although the noise wasn't quite so bad there. Now that we've gone to VDSL 2+ with it's higher frequencies again, I'm even seeing some noise up on 6m, and 10m is now completely gone.

As the lead-ins to all of the houses in the suburb are 50+ year old copper that comes out of the pit, then up the nearest pole, and into each house, the WHOLE suburb is now a no-go zone for HF operation. We have all of these bloody great big inverted-L antennas spewing their signal out across the spectrum. There's no point trying to fix any individual lead-in or pole, it's EVERY one of them. With HF in the car, I have S9+ noise anywhere in my suburb, and that drops back to almost nothing when I drive out of the suburb, into areas that have either FTTP or underground FTTC lead-ins.

So obviously this is a widely experienced problem, and we could fap around trying to fix individual sites, but we really need a nationwide, policy-level fix for this BS situation. Where are the WIA and RASA on this? HF has become totally unusable for so many people now, even on digital modes. I think a lot of people don't realise what the broadband noise is that's wiping out their HF, usually they simply write it off as "the rising RF smog of suburbia". Surely we can get WIA and RASA onto this? Even if it were to get NBN to notch out the Ham bands on their VDSL services? I'll rejoin the WIA (or even join RASA) if one of them can effect a solution to this.

The flow on from this, of course, is that we are never going to get those newcomers to the hobby that've traditionally come in via CB or HF SWL, as unlike the old days, they simply can't hear a bloody thing on HF, so they're never going to progress to listening to our bands, and onto joining clubs, becoming licensed, etc.

[VK3RX]

The WIA will publish letters from non members in AR I believe, which would be a good start to get the ball rolling.

I don't know an address though, but Roger VK2ZRH is a member of this forum.

There is a solution - notching - but how that is done and where (the node?) I don't know. I thought in the U.K. at least notching was the norm.

[VK5TM]

Letters to the Editor for AR mag is simon@wia.org.au

I would be more inclined to start with the Telecommunications Ombudsman and the ACMA.

Also, do you have any commercial MW or FM stations that you can no longer listen to because of the interference? - Amateur Radio is so far down the list of priorities as far as interference mitigation on either the ACMA's or the Ombudsman's agenda that it will be completely ignored and there is no point complaining to the NBN mob, they think they are way above the law.

Whereas, because large sums of money are involved from advertisers, interference to commercial radio will be looked at quick smart.

Don't just complain once, keep complaining until you get a response - it will, unfortunately take a while.

As to UK and notching - yes it is done but not always that effective - there is a campaign on in the UK to get people to report VDSL interference to their regulator (Ofcom) but from comments I've seen, it appears as though those complaints are falling on similarly deaf governmental ears.

[VK3RX]

We're on FTTN with the node just over 900m away. With our house telephone wiring sorted we were getting a not unexpected maximum line speed of 28/6Mbps, until NBN work in the area caused a drop to 18/6MBps which they've refused to fix, but that's another story.

I was wondering about an upgrade at some point to FTTC, because shortly before we were connected to the NBN their techs ran an optical fibre cable through a pit on our nature strip, apparently to feed a new node that was being put in somewhere.

These reports of interference from FTTC have dampened that thought. Our feed from the pit to the house is underground, but the two neighbors upstream from us have overhead feeds from a power pole.

I don't know what the NBN plan is re upgrading FTTN to FTTC or FTTP/FTTB. I have read that FTTC was being put in for areas that had poor FTTN speeds due to distance from a node or poor telecommunications cabling. Whether this will be the end state or the plan is to ultimately roll out FTTP/FTTB I don't know.

Interesting reading here:

Under the Hood with NBN FTTC Hardware (DPUs)

[VK2VRC]

Any improvement as things have dried out a little?

I received another call from NBN Co. yesterday , after the Covid shutdown here in Sydney. Spoke to a woman this time, who is my Customer Resolution Specialist .After going over what the problems are ,and explaining that I have 2 faults , the broadband vectoring noise ,which is white noise across the HF spectrum ,and the other noise that attaches itself to my signal on 14Mhz ,I reminded her that I had sent a video of both ,and she acknowledged that she had it ,but hadn't viewed it ,as she thought it was just a single image. She said she has now passed this onto the technical department ,and they would come out ,although she couldn't give me a date at this stage, I asked her to let me knows soon as she knew a date ,as I wanted to be here . I want to be able to speak to the Technician ,demonstrate both faults and give immediate feedback ,if it is rectified or not. Luckily signals on HF are improving ,and along with Diversity receive ,I am still able to operate ,although I can't do any weak signal Dx ,which is one of the things I enjoy most. Fingers and toes are crossed that they find something ,and are able to rectify it.

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Any improvement as things have dried out a little?

That's promising Wayne,
What number did you contact them on?
I will do the same process....

Hilary
VK2AZ

--
Hi Hil

I just rang on 1800 687 626
I think I followed a few prompts, and spoke to a woman ,who although not technical ,was happy to take all details on the problem ,and passed it on to the appropriate person.A big change to when I rang months previously ,and just got fobbed off.DO IT,it is with the time and effort .If everybody sits back and does nothing ,we will eventually lose everything.

[VK5PJ]

Hi Wayne,
when you said this "and the other noise that attaches itself to my signal on 14Mhz" this peaked my attention, for a long time on 160 metres if I transmit there with a digital signal of any sort I get after a few minutes a carrier that sweeps slowly back and forth across my TX signal. If I wait for 5 or more minutes it then stops its sweep and goes away. if I fire up again, particularly on WSPR then this sweeper comes back. The longer I transmit for the closer it ends up to my origin frequency. Is this anything like what you are experiencing on 14 MHz?

[VK2VRC]

Any improvement as things have dried out a little?

Hi Wayne,
when you said this "and the other noise that attaches itself to my signal on 14Mhz" this peaked my attention, for a long time on 160 metres if I transmit there with a digital signal of any sort I get after a few minutes a carrier that sweeps slowly back and forth across my TX signal.  If I wait for 5 or more minutes it then stops its sweep and goes away.  if I fire up again, particularly on WSPR then this sweeper comes back.  The longer I transmit for the closer it ends up to my origin frequency.  Is this anything like what you are experiencing on 14 MHz?

My noise is different to this,I have 2 noises .I have wide band noise, across the spectrum ,which is like white noise at around S7-8 up to around 18MHz , this is what I believe is vectoring noise , could be higher but don't have a resonant antenna to get accurate readings any higher. I also have another more annoying noise ,that sound similar to the radar ,only at a much higher rate ,and as soon as I transmit ,it is on my transmit frequency ,and can be 60KHz or more wide ,and very loud . I posted an image a bit earlier in this thread showing this noise .I can't upload a video of the noise , on this forum unfortunately .

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Any improvement as things have dried out a little?

I have had the NBN techs out a couple of times ,and they went around the neighbourhood with their RF leakage detectors and fixed a few bad connections, dropped my noise about 3db. They actually disconnected the the cables around the corner from my house , so there was no signals present on their lines ,and my noise remained the same , a check of the area with the RF leak detector and with my portable transceiver and DF loop ,found that there was still a noise being generated and running up some cables going up the pole outside my neighbours house . They say that they are connected to the Optus telephone cables strung along the street ,although with NBN our phones are all over the NBN and not overhead wires .So the saga continues , I am now trying to get Optus to send a technician and not just an installer out .

[VK3RX]

One of my club members obtained this from somewhere:


  nbn-Amateur-Radio-guide-publication.pdf (Size: 1.83 MB / Downloads: 544)

[VK2AZ]

Looks like it came from this page:
https://www.nbnco.com.au/develop-or-plan...ng/cabling

VK3FS also has reference to it here:
https://3fs.net.au/amateur-radio/nbn-mit...-to-vdsl2/

Love this quote:
"Under normal conditions, this overlap in spectrum is not a concern. VDSL2 signals should not interfere with amateur radio signals as they are carried over copper wires and transmit at very low power. Maximum VDSL2 transmission is around 28 milliwatt spread across the spectrum between 25 kHz and 17.6 MHz, and microwatt levels into the amateur radio bands themselves. With wellbalanced twisted pair copper conductors, the power carrying the VDSL signals remains nearfield confined to the tight vicinity around the twisted pair cables and will emit little signal into the surrounding environment."

Tell that to the many Radio Amateurs that experience this issue.

[VK3RX]

Thanks for the links.
A mate in regional Victoria said their AM broadcast band was knocked out by NBN Fixed Wireless from day one. I told him I'd read a couple of years back about a VK7 having the same issue and that the firmware in one of the boxes at that time needed to be wound back to the previous version.
His wife won't let him report the issue. She thinks that an NBN tech fiddling with their NBN electronics might degrade their service 

If I am interpreting the document correctly, if you are (say) experiencing interference from the NBN on 80m, turn off your modem, transmit on 80m and turn the modem back on, and when it syncs to the node 80m might be notched out?

Can't be that simple ....

[VK5PJ]

Hey Damien,
if you have AM band interference, you have a justifiable cause for complaint as this is a protected band used for emergency notices in cases of bush fire and flood.

There was a problem with early NBN fixed wireless units that had a terrible earth loop in them that caused them to radiate like Radio Australia (well used to radiate)... contact the ISP and report it, no matter what the ISP says, they have to report back tot he NBN about interference to a protected band.