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RE: Future assessments - WIA or other ?? - VK4WDM - 02-02-2019
"I predict that the examination process will become more expensive. It's probably self-evident. "
According to the link I posted above, their fee for a marine license application and exam is $89.
Wayne VK4WDM
RE: Future assessments - WIA or other ?? - VK2CSW - 02-02-2019
What was the WIA's latest (last?) cost?
RE: Future assessments - WIA or other ?? - VK6RO - 02-02-2019
RASA wishes to congratulate the UTAS/AMC on winning the tender for examinations and callsign management, announced today by ACMA - refer here.
Glenn Dunstan VK4DU and Andrew Smith VK6AS will serve as advisors to the AMC.
The AMC has been successfully managing maritime radio examinations Australia-wide for the past sixteen years on behalf of the ACMA.
The educational resources available from UTAS/AMC will provide a streamlined and professional assessment system for amateur radio.
RE: Future assessments - WIA or other ?? - VK3AV - 02-02-2019
When you have a look at how AMC run the Maritime Radio Operators Certificates you find (my summary) -
- You can study independently or attend a course. If a course then the trainer must hold the same or better certificate. (A normal VET requirement)
- You contact an invigilator for the assessment. Some work independently, some out of associations such as TAFE's, maritime training organisations and volunteer groups.
- Independent invigilators supervise examinations on a voluntary basis and therefore do not charge for this service, although there may be reimbursement of costs incurred. If associated with an organisation then there may be an admin fee charged. It does not infer that the invigilator holds the same or better licence and ultimately they are simply supervising your completion of the exam package and posting it back to the AMC.
- The invigilator will request an exam package from the AMC and return it to the ANC for marking.
That does not seem to distant from the previous WIA process as I read it.
So -
- The course could be at a radio club and the trainer an existing facilitator or anyone who holds the same or better licence level.
- The invigilator could well be an existing assessor under the old scheme. Subject to AMC registration and probably needing to hold a Cert IV in training and assessment (TAE40116).
- The only difference at the end is that AMC do the marking so you would not have the Pass/Fail result by the time you walked out the door. Who manages the call sign allocation is also a question but quite likely the ACMA themselves.
- A plus there would ultimately be the potential for the pass being recognised as an RPL component towards another VET qualification as it is being managed by a registered RTO.
As I read it...
Regards
Bernard
(Who has a non-current and older Cert 4 TAA and has been a VET trainer in the past.)
RE: Future assessments - WIA or other ?? - VK7HH - 04-02-2019
Strange that we've had no internal communications either on our internal staff portal or in email about this at UTAS...
RE: Future assessments - WIA or other ?? - VK4WDM - 04-02-2019
How many marine radio ops will want to get a ham license and vice versa? This could provide some interesting synergy and interaction including RPL for common modules.
Wayne VK4WDM
RE: Future assessments - WIA or other ?? - VK4DCM - 04-02-2019
Dark Days ahead for our hobby ACMA out to destroy our hobby $250+ to go for an exam.. Say goodby to the foundation licence kids.
RE: Future assessments - WIA or other ?? - VK4WDM - 04-02-2019
VK4DCM. And where is your actual evidence for that statement? Have you looked at previous posts that show the AMC cost structure for the exams they currently do? What makes you think that the AR exams will be much different?
Wayne VK4WDM
RE: Future assessments - WIA or other ?? - VK4ADC - 04-02-2019
Back in June 2018, I sent my individual submission (re New Approaches To Amateur Radio Qualifications) to the ACMA about the possible changes in assessment methodology and my concerns about costs to obtain the AOCP qualifications if the "system changed".
Well now it has changed and there are more questions than answers about processes, costs, timing etc. I am sure time will reveal most, if not all details, but it is the black-hole syndrome until then.
Assessors have been asked to return unused assessment packs (which is all of them !) to the WIA as "These need to be accounted for as part of the transition out plan with ACMA." Apart from the advice that the Trainsafe/Silvertrain assessor information system is going ( has gone ?) offline, there has not been any direct communications from the WIA about what to expect. They need to resolve that situation immediately - and publicly - for their members - and all Australian amateurs' benefit - with what they know.
The AMC has yet to announce anything (as far as I am aware) so if you become aware of releases / information, either paste a copy here against this thread or at least put up a web link to their release.
My submission to the ACMA on 29 June 2018 on the "New Approaches To Amateur Radio Qualifications" follows :
"
The amateur radio environment in Australia is in a state of flux. A high percentage of licensed operators are in the old(er) age bracket and, despite the incentives through STEAM/STEM, there do not seem to be enough younger persons entering the hobby to counterbalance those at older ages lost through death.
The count of new persons seen taking assessments seems low despite the rapidly growing Australian population numbers, and the availability of easy communications via internet facilities rather than radio, means that some form of encouragement is needed to prevent the hobby from being destroyed.
From personal observation, a number of young adults to middle aged, often mixed with the encumbrances of raising a family, do not have a lot of available money to undertake amateur radio qualification assessments. Their money is destined for matters of higher importance like housing, food and clothing.
The review of the qualification arrangements must include a microscopic view of the ongoing-over-time costs to be borne by prospective candidates, particularly where RTOs specify that candidates must complete one of their training modules prior to being allowed to contest assessment. Historically, candidates have undertaken self-study to prepare and have done so at minimal cost and at learning rates as suited to their personal circumstances. Using solely for-profit RTOs is likely to take away that flexibility and freedom, particularly if the selected RTO makes participation in one of their training courses mandatory.
The current assessment process through the WIA provides a small measure of relief by reducing fees for those candidates under the age of 18 years. It has no mandatory pre-assessment training criteria in place although it does encourage interested persons to undertake training through a local amateur radio club. In many cases, that training is beneficial for the procedural side of communications – an area that a person who has never used a radio transceiver often needs guidance in – as to what to say and how to say it.
The current assessment process through the WIA and its affiliate RTO, Silvertrain, works fairly smoothly through its group of volunteer assessors spread throughout Australia. The cost to the candidate is probably lower than would be expected from a for-profit RTO for the same processes given that they would undoubtedly have to pay their assessment team an hourly rate plus they would be in it to make a profit for their organisation. The WIA recently reported (2018 AGM) that the fees charged for assessments do not cover the actual processing costs so how would a for-profit RTO able to provide the functionality at the same or similar rates ?
The move to on-line assessment for the multiple choice theory and regulations components testing is only a matter of time regardless of whether it is implemented by the WIA or another RTO. However it is unlikely that an RTO is going to have a team of assessors qualified to undertake the aspect of practical testing spread throughout Australia, as has been in place through the WIA over the last 10+ years. With approaches Two and Three, that may mean that the practical test may have to be abandoned despite it ensuring that persons have at least a minimum knowledge of how to connect, fault find and use a radio installation correctly plus the aspects of procedures and safety.
The other outcome of this consultation should be the recognition that a Certificate Of Proficiency is desirable, rather than a Statement of Attainment issued solely by a RTO. Most people who have a Certificate of Proficiency will proudly display it on a wall while a Statement of Attainment is more likely to end up in a folder in a drawer. The Certificate seems to be a greater accomplishment and these should be seen as milestones in a social environment where visible milestones are hard to detail. This may seem to be miniscule in importance but it is still a benefit to contemplate.
I have been a WIA Assessor for over 10 years and have conducted a number of assessments in that period. I have met candidates who were knowledgeable and some who struggled. One factor I have noted through these assessment contacts is that the person’s socio-economic status has an effect on how well educated they are, how well prepared they are, and their affordability of assessments. One possible adult candidate recently withdrew because he could not afford the $70 fee for the Foundation assessment. Had he wanted to undertake multiple sections (eg Standard or Advanced Theory, Regulations and Practical), the overall fees might have nearly tripled. I am truly concerned about future costs should an RTO become the only option for persons wishing to enter the hobby.
.................. Text removed - no longer relevant ............
The world is a different place today but encouraging our youth to enter the radiocommunications arena is important - to themselves, and to Australia - and if amateur radio provides a pathway to that access, the easier and less cost-inhibitive it is, there is a major benefit in place. The older population need encouragement too, a worthwhile hobby to be interested in and a means to extend their knowledge. In my mind, increasing costs will deter new licensees.
I have read and re-read the detail in the ACMA’s Consultation document and tried to be bias-free whilst doing so. I cannot see benefits to the amateur radio service with the last two options, only to organisations who either are, or would be, RTOs who want to try to make a profit.
"
RE: Future assessments - WIA or other ?? - VK4ADC - 05-02-2019
There is a very informative post on the Radio Amateur Society of Australia's web site at http://vkradioamateurs.org/exam-update-from-vk6as/ which provides a little more light on the subject.
It is well worth the read pending more details forthcoming.
Of course one could argue that the Tender details were not matched in respect of the required 4th February starting date... so one would have to wonder why the Tender from the AMC was accepted.
RE: Future assessments - WIA or other ?? - VK2CSW - 05-02-2019
Requests for Tender (RFT), Statement of Works and Tender Replies are not a binding contract.
Once a preferred Tenderer is chosen, that is when the contractual negotiations begin. Once the negotiation period concludes, then a contract is finalised and signed - only then does it become (almost) binding.
Any and all items in the RFT can be renegotiated, and as it appears the ACMA dragged it's feet a little, the commencement date would have been one of those items.
RE: Future assessments - WIA or other ?? - VK3RX - 05-02-2019
I have no experience with the process, but I note above you said:
Quote:The current assessment process through the WIA and its affiliate RTO, Silvertrain, works fairly smoothly through its group of volunteer assessors spread throughout Australia.
The "other" site mentioned says in part:
Quote:the previous excessively onerous and bureaucratic business rules developed by the previous provider
True, or was the comment just an opportunity for another swipe at the WIA?
RE: Future assessments - WIA or other ?? - VK4ADC - 09-02-2019
From WIA News for 10Feb 2019 :
" Continuing WIA National News and last week we learnt how our WIA had congratulated the University of Tasmania and Australian Maritime College (AMC) in being selected by the ACMA as the preferred provider for the delivery of amateur radio examination, callsign management and associated services.
In a Memnet advisory and now published for all on https://www.wia.org.au/newsevents/news/2019/20190205-1/index.php
we see the WIA board views this as a watershed moment in the history of amateur radio in Australia. The expedient delivery of these services by a skilled team backed by a sandstone university promises to deliver a robust, cost-effective and efficient qualification service for the Australian amateur community.
It is the view of the WIA board and the WIA Education Group that anything other than a smooth transition to the AMC will damage the already fragile amateur radio community. For this reason, the WIA and ACMA met in October last year to begin planning for this potential eventuality. " We are committed to ensuring that the WIA does not cause any obstruction to this process." said the release.
The WIA National Office is in the process of transferring all callsign applications, assessments and other activities that were in progress on Friday the 1st of February, 2019 to the ACMA.
The WIA sincerely thanks all WIA volunteers, assessors and learning facilitators that have been involved in the previous examination systems over the past 20+ years for their incredible contribution to the hobby of amateur radio.
There will be changes and uncertainty in the near term.
To ensure a smooth transition and continuity of services for this great hobby the WIA will work collaboratively with the AMC and trust you will as well. "
RE: Future assessments - WIA or other ?? - VK4ADC - 16-02-2019
From: WIA NATIONAL NEWS FOR WEEK COMMENCING Feb 17 2019
Since the announcement that UTAS/AMC are the preferred providers, the WIA has begun the process of transitioning-out. This process has been documented by the WIA and ACMA and involves the transfer of Commonwealth Intellectual Property back to the ACMA as per the previous Deed and Transition-Out Plan. This material was sent to the ACMA last Friday.
The Board has been receiving many questions from clubs and Assessors. These range from when will the new arrangements come into place, how do you book for an assessment and what will be the new assessment process. The WIA cannot answer any of these questions as at the time of writing this Board Comment a new Deed had not yet been signed between the ACMA and UTAS.
Enquiries should now be directed to the ACMA who administer exams, certification and all matters relating to callsigns. The email address for enquiries is licencing@acma.gov.au
RE: Future assessments - WIA or other ?? - VK4ADC - 21-02-2019
The WIA has released its Approach To Market document - the tender for the amateur radio examinations & callsign management.
The WIA news page link is here : https://www.wia.org.au/newsevents/news/2019/20190221-1/index.php
Of interest is the detail in the document provided there : https://www.wia.org.au/newsevents/news/2019/20190221-1/documents/WIA-ACMA-Tender-Response-Redacted.pdf
My observations:
Following comments about what an alternative provider, even the AMC, might charge for assessments, the detail in the WIA Tender on P56 has what their anticipated fees would have been - this is attached in an image (below) since I couldn't extract just the text from their PDF.
I waded through most of the 104 pages and it is mostly-dry and heavy reading. I am unsure as to whether the utilisation of ATEAL to fulfil the requirements for an RTO was the correct direction for the WIA to contemplate. Given that ATEAL does not currently exist and would take time, a lot of money that would probably have to come from the WIA, and quite a lot of effort to create and put in place physically. Then comes the training requirements, the certifications,......
What is ATEAL : read page 14 of the ATM document, it starts there.
Is ATEAL a core WIA business ? No.
It would have made more sense to continue with Silvertrain or even start up with a different already-existing RTO - and that might have made the difference between losing and winning the Tender since the entity and mechanisms were already in place ( rather than having ATEAL happening sometime along a vague 2019 timeline ).
It would have been interesting to compare the documents that were used in 2008/2009 to win the previous Tender against this submission. Unlikely to be available to us though it might have been successful with minor updating put in place.
Yes, I am an old fogey but the newer minds that are currently driving the WIA obviously read something wrongly - they didn't win the Tender with their approach. They might be highly qualified with lots of letters after their names but that doesn't mean that they have all the answers. Obviously.
Flame suit is now on and set to MAX protection.
Doug VK4ADC
Exams:
Callsigns:
RE: Future assessments - WIA or other ?? - VK4AQJ - 24-02-2019
"Yes, I am an old fogey but the newer minds that are currently driving the WIA obviously read something wrongly - they didn't win the Tender with their approach. They might be highly qualified with lots of letters after their names but that doesn't mean that they have all the answers. Obviously."
As with most tenders, the people highlighted in the tender documents with lots of letters after their names have very little involvement in the practical implementation of the tender. It will probably end up being the same actors as before with different hats and a more confusing set of guidelines to interpret.
We old fogies have seen it all before.
RE: Future assessments - WIA or other ?? - VK4ADC - 05-03-2019
It seems the bunfight is not yet complete.
The WIA have sent a letter to members about the increase in fees for assessments along with other matters pertaining to the loss of conducting the assessments, ACMA requirements etc...
It starts off with..
WIA Information Update
4 March 2019
RE: WIA Position on outcomes of the Approach to Market for Examination Services.
The full letter to members is per the attached PDF :
https://www.wia.org.au/newsevents/news/2019/20190304-1/documents/WIA-Information-Update-20190304.pdf
In previous posts ( https://www.ahrdf.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=730&pid=3189#pid3189 posts #7 & #8 ), Chris VK4YE and I referred to profitability to the AMC using free-of-charge assessors and it has been reiterated in the Update document :
2. For profit vs Not for Profit
Many assessors have reached out in dismay at the fact that they are being caught in a “pincer move” where their voluntary efforts are being leveraged on a “for profit basis” by a third party organisation that is entirely unrelated to the hobby.
These assessors feel disdain at the thought of “giving their time for free while someone else profits with no hope of these profits being returned to the hobby” whilst at the same time a recognition that without their efforts the hobby will die.
The WIA board is of the view that preying on the good nature of the amateur community by organisations and individuals who are seeking commercial, personal and political outcomes is unconscionable and support those who for this reasons decide they cannot continue in the assessment process.
Like I started this post off, the bunfight continues.
RE: Future assessments - WIA or other ?? - VK3RX - 05-03-2019
Agree, and boy, the exam costs will certainly increase substantially.
To quote further from the WIA letter:
Quote:The result of the negotiations between the AMC bid team and ACMA procurement has resulted in the headline entry price to the hobby of amateur radio rising:
● $75 to $115 (Foundation Assessment, Practical Assessment & Callsign Recommendation) for adults - an increase of over 140%, (WIA’s proposal was $49)
● $40 to $115 (Foundation Assessment, Practical Assessment & Callsign Recommendation) for youth - an astonishing 285% increase. (WIA’s proposal was $27)
RE: Future assessments - WIA or other ?? - VK4AQJ - 02-04-2019
(02-02-2019, 01:43 PM)VK2CSW Wrote:(02-02-2019, 01:28 PM)VK4AQJ Wrote: I predict that the examination process will become more expensive. It's probably self-evident.
Not necessarily self-evident.
Economies of scale and an already established 'path to market' mean that UTAS/AMC may actually be more efficient in their delivery.
I think I'll stick with my original prediction.
RE: Future assessments - WIA or other ?? - VK4ADC - 10-04-2019
( From: WIA NATIONAL NEWS FOR WEEK COMMENCING Apr 07 2019 )
Extract from a segment starting off "This is Roger Harrison VK2ZRH from the Spectrum Strategy Committee."
"
Under the title of licensing and licensing systems, the ACMA says that, over 2019-2020, it will seek the inclusion of amateur qualifications in the Australian Qualifications Framework to enable more education and training bodies to provide amateur training and qualifications. Sure to be of wide interest in many quarters. There will be public consultation, says the ACMA.
Of direct interest to ALL amateurs and prospective amateurs is the ACMAs intention to commence consultation on potential changes to licence conditions on the fourth quarter of 2018-2019 coming up real soon, now, and maybe further consultation in the first quarter of 2019-2020.
"
Australian Qualifications Framework : https://www.aqf.edu.au/
All with reference to...
Draft five-year spectrum outlook 2019−23
The Australian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA) has released a consultation draft of its Five-year Spectrum Outlook for 2019–23, which sets out the work that it plans to do in spectrum management over the next few years. The original info on the ACMA web site :
https://www.acma.gov.au/theacma/draft-five-year-spectrum-outlook-2019-23
Reference document : https://www.acma.gov.au/theacma/-/media/DE72A686EF4F4D639C2A34A45719877F.ashx
Consultation closes: 16 May 2019
IFC: 10/2019