+- Australian Ham Radio Discussion Forum ( AHRDF ) (https://www.ahrdf.net/forum)
+-- Forum: GENERAL (https://www.ahrdf.net/forum/forum-29.html)
+--- Forum: General Discussion (https://www.ahrdf.net/forum/forum-9.html)
+--- Thread: Unknown radio mast on land I have bought, any ideas? (/thread-1258.html)
Unknown radio mast on land I have bought, any ideas? - SWL-VK4016 - 27-12-2022
Hello everyone,
I am new to this forum, and not a ham operator, however I have recently purchased a block of land in the Toowoomba, QLD area which I later discovered has a radio mast on it that would appear to be some sort of disused repeater. I am curious about the history of the repeater site, however I have not had any luck finding out much about it. I am wondering whether anyone here might be able to point me towards any resources where I could find out more information about what the site may have been used for in the past.
The site isn't used any longer (the solar panels were covered in lantana) and any signs that may have once been affixed to the equipment cabinet have long since perished. I did manage to find a manufacture date of January 1985 on the back of one of the solar panels, but that was it.
I have looked through the ACMA Register of Radiocommunications Licences (RRL) and while they show some NBN towers and other smaller sites in the surrounding area, there is nothing listed for my site. I guess this is not too surprising given its age, but I am unfamiliar with the rules for repeater sites, and whether registration is not required if one is operated by a licensed ham, however I presumed some sort of registration or record would be required.
I haven't yet been able to open the equipment cabinet at the base of the mast, but perhaps that would shed more light on things, if there is anything left behind in it. I tried picking the lock but it's a bit beyond my skill level, so I will have to go back with bolt cutters or something next time I'm at the site. It's a two hour walk each way from the nearest road so not somewhere I can pop down to at a moment's notice.
I've uploaded some photos of the mast here: https://imgur.com/a/WY0kklx
Does anyone know of any resources I could use to shed some light on what this site may have been used for in the past? Do the antenna types give any hints about what frequencies might have been used? What is the purpose of the rusty pole half way up the middle of the mast?
Sorry for the basic questions but like I say, I have little experience in this field! I realise it would probably help if I could give the exact location of the site however I'm a little reluctant to share that on a public forum for the moment. However if anyone recommends any resources that I am able to access and it does reveal information on the site I would be happy to share if anyone is interested.
Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer!
RE: Unknown radio mast on land I have bought, any ideas? - VK5TM - 27-12-2022
Can't help with who's mast it was but probably not ham radio.
Aerials (without getting a really close look) would seem to point to a UHF link of some sort.
One thing I will say, what ever you do, DO NOT try winding the which - the cable is badly rusted and is inherently dangerous - the mast is a which up type and if that cable snaps, it will come down very quickly.
The sign with serial the number might be a clue in that it might have previously been a Telecom link facility/repeater.
RE: Unknown radio mast on land I have bought, any ideas? - VK4ADC - 27-12-2022
Hi, nothing like a good mystery to work on.
One thing you could supply that would assist is the dimension leg-to-leg (outside) of the bottom section of the tower. That would give us a dimension to scale the antenna elements against and thus their approximate frequency range.
There is one 'local' side mount dipole which is possibly UHF, the bottom 6 and 3 element yagis are vertically polarised so probably are part of a wide area linking facilty for UHF mobile radio network. There is another yagi further up near the SMD but the element details are not clear enough in the photos to even guess whether UHF or high-band VHF.
It would not be a Telstra facillity from back in the late 1980s, they 'did' their facilities in a much more professional way and (generally) did not do the interlinking that way. It is more likely to be a left-over from one of the mobile two-way radio companies that went bust when new technology (trunking) overtook the style of comm's back then.
I was involved in inspecting some of that style of facilities and comms types back in that time as a part of my job for the Dept of Communications (later SMA and now ACMA) so have some familiarity with how things were done back then. It is unlikely that there would be any records on file available from back (eg ACMA) then so the next best option is any paper records within the building itself - and there should be some minimal licensing paperwork inside as it was mandated at that time.
Hopefully there is no current facilities lease in place that has legal jeopardy attached despite your purchase of the land.
You will need to get professional riggers to drop the tower safely and it looks like it would require significant maintenance to get it useable again.
**** You also need to verify if there is mains power still on the facility before you do anything significant inside the building. **** Safety first.
Doug VK4ADC
Postscript :
A few more thoughts this morning..
Given the number of antennas, there had to be at least 4 and probably 8 frequencies in the RRL and making it a defined base/repeater/linking site. The location would have been defined in Australian Map Grid (AMG) coordinates as Zone, Easting and Northing rather than Lat and Long so a quick site search might fail. Those AMG values are correct usually to 10 metres. You will need to find the exact Lat/Long using Google Earth or simlar, convert to AMG, and then search the RRL again using that data. Once you find the site definition, the attached frequency records point back at the licensee/owner. If there are literally no frequencies still listed, or the defined site is de-listed then the site may have been abandoned and there are no historical links to follow.
Of course, the facility could be operational even now so don't drop towers or cut mains power until you have some answers..
Your solicitors undoubtedly did a encumbrances check but may not have found a leasing arrangement for a small portion of the land. It would pay to ask them.
RE: Unknown radio mast on land I have bought, any ideas? - VK2CSW - 28-12-2022
(27-12-2022, 08:58 PM)VK4ADC Wrote: Of course, the facility could be operational even now so don't drop towers or cut mains power until you have some answers..
Or drop the power off and see who turns up to fix it...
(Just kidding
)
RE: Unknown radio mast on land I have bought, any ideas? - VK3RX - 28-12-2022
Around this neck of the woods council/shire approval is required for such an installation.
It may be worthwhile asking them if they have any records.
RE: Unknown radio mast on land I have bought, any ideas? - VK3BA - 28-12-2022
As per some commentary above, it looks like an abandoned site. It doesn't look like it's been accessed in recent years either. I suspect you won't find a lease or permit for the structure as times were a lot easier back in 1985. If in doubt, kill the power if it's not already off and see what happens. Then it's all yours... what's left of it...
RE: Unknown radio mast on land I have bought, any ideas? - SWL-VK4016 - 28-12-2022
Thanks all for the helpful info!
The nearest power line is about 10 km away so there's definitely no mains power at the site. It's possible the solar panels and batteries are still working, however it seems unlikely, especially as nobody has been back to remove the lantana off the panels, so I'm pretty confident it's no longer in use. Whether it was actually switched off, or whether it just failed one day and was then abandoned, I don't know.
There was no mention of a site lease in any of the legal documents in the purchase process, and the solicitor was very thorough, although I don't think they would've done any ACMA searches. You're required to list any encumbrances on the purchase contract, so if there was an active lease and the sellers didn't list it, I imagine any legal liability would be with the sellers for failing to disclose (since they've effectively sold me something that wasn't theirs to sell, which is fraud). However if the site was still active I would've expected it to show up in a current ACMA RRL search, which it does not. They have a map search where you can look at a specific area and see a list of sites, and it shows up sites in all directions around my site, but nothing shows up within a few kilometres of this location.
I can't see how to search the RRL via AMG coordinates. There is an archive from 1996 you can apparently search, however that appears to be down due to a server error at the moment. I had a bit of trouble finding an online converter from lat/long to AMG as well so not sure how accurate that would be.
Interesting idea about asking the council, I might try that if no other avenues reveal anything useful.
Thanks for pointing out the rusted cable on the winch. I hadn't actually noticed that - I think the brown colour made it invisible to me thinking it was just another stick as I haven't looked closely at everything yet but you're right, it is quite badly rusted. It would be far too expensive to get a rigger out there so it will probably be a case of doing some research and seeing how far I can get myself. There are no clear paths up to the site, you have to climb over loose rocks and machete the lantana for about an hour, carrying everything on your back you want to take with you. I have no idea how they got the mast up there in the first place, unless they dropped it off from a helicopter.
I'll make a note to measure the mast leg dimensions next time I'm out there, although I will probably take something on that visit to cut the lock off the cabinet so I might get a few more answers then.
Thanks again for your insights!
RE: Unknown radio mast on land I have bought, any ideas? - VK4CDI - 28-12-2022
(28-12-2022, 02:56 PM)SWL-VK4016 Wrote: Thanks all for the helpful info!
The nearest power line is about 10 km away so there's definitely no mains power at the site. It's possible the solar panels and batteries are still working, however it seems unlikely, especially as nobody has been back to remove the lantana off the panels, so I'm pretty confident it's no longer in use. Whether it was actually switched off, or whether it just failed one day and was then abandoned, I don't know.
There was no mention of a site lease in any of the legal documents in the purchase process, and the solicitor was very thorough, although I don't think they would've done any ACMA searches. You're required to list any encumbrances on the purchase contract, so if there was an active lease and the sellers didn't list it, I imagine any legal liability would be with the sellers for failing to disclose (since they've effectively sold me something that wasn't theirs to sell, which is fraud). However if the site was still active I would've expected it to show up in a current ACMA RRL search, which it does not. They have a map search where you can look at a specific area and see a list of sites, and it shows up sites in all directions around my site, but nothing shows up within a few kilometres of this location.
I can't see how to search the RRL via AMG coordinates. There is an archive from 1996 you can apparently search, however that appears to be down due to a server error at the moment. I had a bit of trouble finding an online converter from lat/long to AMG as well so not sure how accurate that would be.
Interesting idea about asking the council, I might try that if no other avenues reveal anything useful.
Thanks for pointing out the rusted cable on the winch. I hadn't actually noticed that - I think the brown colour made it invisible to me thinking it was just another stick as I haven't looked closely at everything yet but you're right, it is quite badly rusted. It would be far too expensive to get a rigger out there so it will probably be a case of doing some research and seeing how far I can get myself. There are no clear paths up to the site, you have to climb over loose rocks and machete the lantana for about an hour, carrying everything on your back you want to take with you. I have no idea how they got the mast up there in the first place, unless they dropped it off from a helicopter.
I'll make a note to measure the mast leg dimensions next time I'm out there, although I will probably take something on that visit to cut the lock off the cabinet so I might get a few more answers then.
Thanks again for your insights!
You could give Comtel a call in Toowoomba........
RE: Unknown radio mast on land I have bought, any ideas? - SWL-VK4016 - 07-05-2023
Hi everyone,
I finally got back to the site and managed to remove the locks and get the cabinet open. There's not much in there but it does appear to be a repeater site, with Boral Resources and a funeral company listed by name along with their call signs. I am not sure why a funeral company would need its own repeater! I have uploaded some more photos of what's inside here: https://imgur.com/a/mwNquYG
I completely forgot to take a measuring tape to measure the legs of the mast, but I'm guessing that's no longer important as the labels inside list the exact frequencies (well two of them anyway).
Out of curiosity, what are the things with the black labels reading LN, HN and ANT? There are some thick copper coils coming out the back of them going into the antenna connectors. Is it some sort of filter, or something to deal with any lightning strikes to the mast, or something else?
I presume nothing in here is of any value (given the site was abandoned) so eventually I will pull it all out and dispose of it, but if there's anything worth preserving let me know. I'd be happy to send it on to anyone interested if they cover the cost of postage, bearing in mind it will likely be some time before I am able to remove it.
RE: Unknown radio mast on land I have bought, any ideas? - VK4ADC - 08-05-2023
Welcome back
Those SMA labels date back to the mid-1980s to mid-1990s, the repeater based on FM828 transceiver/s typically the same era when converted for repeater use. It is likely the diecast boxes with the coax connectors on the end contain a transmitter in one, a receiver in the second, as well as the unmodified separate FM828 unit.
The box with the LN, HN and ANT labelling is for a diplexer/duplexer so that only one antenna is required, the LN is the lower frequency port, the HN is the higher frequency, ANT is antenna. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duplexer
i've got to admit that using the N-male plugs pushed into BNC sockets is not a good practice for a remote facility !
There is so much corrosion evident that nothing there has any value.
Doug
.
RE: Unknown radio mast on land I have bought, any ideas? - VK3UVW - 10-05-2023
(08-05-2023, 07:57 AM)VK4ADC Wrote: i've got to admit that using the N-male plugs pushed into BNC sockets is not a good practice for a remote facility !
Oh wow. I can see how they got to that point - remote site, make do with what you have and fix it later.
Just, the 'fix it later' step is kinda important. Surprised it lasted as long as it evidently did!
RE: Unknown radio mast on land I have bought, any ideas? - SWL-VK4016 - 08-09-2024
Hi all - just another update on this, probably the last one! I finally got vehicle access to the site so I could bring some of the equipment back for disposal. I opened up some of the boxes out of curiosity, and it looks like they used handheld radios to run the repeater.
I expected perhaps a commercial repeater product, so I was surprised to see hacked apart handheld radios! No idea what brand or model they might be but they look a bit more recent than the 1984 date on the solar panels would suggest, so I wonder if these were installed more recently at the site, perhaps in the 1990s?
Some photos are here: https://imgur.com/a/7AS71so
I briefly powered them up with 12V just out of curiosity to see if they still work and three of the four units come up with a channel number on the display, with the fourth unit being a model variation without a display. I didn't try transmitting anything (not licensed and having no antenna being the two main reasons) but it looks like they would still work.
I was thinking maybe they are standard CB radios and some sort of converter was used to move the signal onto the allocated frequencies, however it appears that the FM828 and other equipment is not actually connected to anything, and these handheld radios go out direct to the antennas on the mast. So I wonder if they have been modified to transmit outside their factory range. Or maybe they aren't CB radios at all! But it ties in with the fact that they look newer than the rest of the equipment, so it seems they are a more recent addition to the site.
Any theories on the possible age of these units? I'm curious to find out at what point the site was last accessed.
EDIT: Managed to get one out of the enclosure, it's a Kenwood TK-360
RE: Unknown radio mast on land I have bought, any ideas? - VK4ADC - 08-09-2024
Hi, good to hear more.
Based on that serial number, which is probably based on the manufacture date code as they often were back then, it would be late 1991 vintage.
These were definitely classed as Land Mobile radios, and could have been programmed to UHF CB.
Kenwood TK-360G
8-channel capacity
Up to 5 watts output power
Lightweight and compact
Large speaker with high audio output
QT/DQT built-in signaling
2-tone talk-back paging
Sleek and sturdy, these are easy-to-handle portables for any situation requiring dependable communications in a compact package. Weighing in at only 14 oz., the TK-260/360 is loaded with features. These 8 channel radios meet MIL-STD specifications so they fit into any work environment.
A quick search didn't actually reveal it but the TK260 was probably a VHF version, the TK360 was for UHF - 400 to 520MHz.
Being hand held radios, the power consumption would have been low and thus easily powered from batteries coupled with a solar panel via a regulator.
You will not get anything for them if sold, too old and too modified. Probably just as well to bin these bits. Interesting but basically worthless.
Doug
RE: Unknown radio mast on land I have bought, any ideas? - SWL-VK4016 - 15-09-2024
Thanks very much for the info!
Interestingly it looks like there was MS-DOS software available to program these radios, they must've been very fancy for 1991.
That date makes sense because the batteries in there that were wired up looked like they were from the 1990s.
I measured the voltage of everything - no surprise the batteries were dead reading about two volts each, but surprisingly the solar panels were measuring 17 V (Voc) and 2.5 A (Isc) which means they appear to be producing a decent amount of power relative to their factory spec of 42 watts. I have an MPPT tester on the way for use with other panels, so I'll put it on these as well to see exactly how much power they are producing after sitting in the sun for 40 years.
Amazingly as we've been clearing away the lantana we discovered the remnants of another old radio mast a few metres away from this one. The mast itself had gone but there were three guy wires all attached to a metal ring, and another old battery nearby. So this cabinet from around 1984 appears to be the second generation of radio repeater at the site!
I noticed as I was pulling everything out, the handheld radios were connected directly to the antennas, they didn't go through the FM828. So it looks like the FM828 was part of the first lot of equipment in this cabinet, then later it was switched over to the Kenwood handheld radios. That explains why the N connector plugs were pushed into the BNC sockets - they must've forgotten they used N connectors and so built the boxes with BNC sockets on them, and when they got out to the site they realised their mistake!